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Bill Williamson 0:21
Hello, listeners. This is Dr. Bill Williamson from SVSU's Department of Rhetoric and Professional Writing back for another episode of All Things RPW. The episode that follows is one that I recorded about a year ago with one of our alumni. But for a variety of reasons the episode never got released. Even though a year has passed, since that initial conversation that I had with Allison Stein, the content of the episode I think, is still relevant. And it's still really useful, because what you get to hear is a recent grad who had launched her own business, talking about what made that possible. And reflecting on how her experiences in SVSU, his professional and technical writing program had helped her on that journey of launching a business and contributed to the formation of the habits and practices that anchored her early success. So it's a really good conversation with a lot of wonderful moments in it. And as it turns out, now, Allison is on the verge of launching a new professional venture, that's a compliment to the business that she continues to run. And I'm gonna bring her back sometime in the next few weeks here to have a conversation with me about that venture and give her a chance to talk about how it's been going over the years since we had that initial conversation. So listeners, stick around and listen in, and I think you'll be happy that you did.

Good, Allison Stein, from Allison Stein Consulting, SVSU, graduate of the Professional and Technical Writing Program, a really recent graduate, that is December 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, and she is on talking to us today about per business venture that she launched upon graduation, which is called Allison Stein Consulting. And we're going to talk to her about how that's gone, and how she got there, and all that kind of stuff. So welcome, Allison,

Allison Stein 2:29
Thank you. My business, just to give a quick overview is based on writing, editing and design services. And I work with clients on different information design products. And for the most part so far that has consisted of books, websites, and social media campaigns.

Bill Williamson 2:49
It's really amazing one that you've had as many clients as you've had already, and to that they've been as diverse as they have in terms of the kinds of projects. That's it's kind of crazy for someone who's just launched into this. And in such a, we're talking seven months, basically, at this point, right?

Allison Stein 3:07
Yeah, it has been seven months. And I've enjoyed the variety of work, I've had the opportunity to do with different clients, I've been able to work with clients who are just getting started and kind of getting their feet wet with different meat like media that they're publishing in. So I've been able to kind of shape those foundational experiences, which has been really fun and rewarding. And then I've also been able to work with some individuals and organizations who are more established and had some prior expectations about the process. So working with different types of clients, and figuring out the strategies and tools that I can implement to be most helpful to them has been a really interesting learning experience as well.

Bill Williamson 3:51
I've had the privilege of being in regular contact with you as you've been on this journey so far. And and I've been impressed all the way through a that's one of the reasons why I invited you to come on and chat about things to to give you some time to kind of reflect on where things have gone over the first several months, but also to give people you know, whether means other young professionals or students in academic programs, but to give people the opportunity to listen to you reflect on some of that journey and the key moments from these past several months.

Allison Stein 4:27
Reflection itself actually has been a really important strategy that I've learned as far as figuring out how to tailor my different my different ways of working and thinking throughout these past seven months, especially incorporating different times for like packets of reflection throughout my day and moments like this where it's maybe a larger milestones like about six months in business has helped me kind of consider different ways to position myself and make different In connections between and among the different lessons I've learned through working with various client projects,

Bill Williamson 5:06
Yeah, I'm sure that I will I know from experience that in those those times where I get so caught up, and even when I feel like I'm being productive if I forget to take a moment, one to breathe, but more importantly to to, to just figure out, okay, what am I doing and what's going well, and what could I have done better. And that act of reflection is so key to understanding success. But you might feel like you're doing really fantastic things you might your bottom line might show that you've done fantastic things, you've had a bunch of clients, if you never give yourself that chance to take stock, it's hard to grow. And it's really hard to determine what has contributed to that formula for success.

Allison Stein 5:48
Right? It's, it's important to know why something went well or didn't go well. And I think taking more moments throughout the day or the week to kind of observe that and think through what I'm doing and how I'm doing it has been helpful in kind of creating some concrete strategies for working with clients, especially as I'm kind of entering this new phase. In the past six months of going into a more professional environment, I've really been working with a different set of strategies in some ways, and reflecting on those and figuring out which ones are most helpful for me in particular, and for the line of work that I do in general has been really crucial to kind of taking perspective and keeping a sense of direction and where I'm at and where I'm heading next.

Bill Williamson 6:35
And no surprise, given what I've known of you as you previously as a student in several classes. But then, like I said, having the privilege of working with you over these past several months of you, as you've launched into the your your career, you are by nature, a reflective person, and you're you're careful in your strategic in you think your way through things, you research really well. So it's no surprise that that's where you start the conversation is with the importance of being able to look back and to be able to assess your where things are going. Like I said, no surprise, and yet at the same time, just absolutely a wonderful thing to hear you emphasize because we talk about it so much in our classes and in our scholarly work. Well, let's, let's take a step back to how it all began for you. And and then let's let's begin the journey again from there. So you step into what as you're as you're getting ready to graduate six months in, at least you come to me and you said, Hey, I'm really interested in launching my own consultancy, can we do something tied to that, and we wound up doing an independent study, as you were wrapping up your academic career that began that process of helping you where you were already begun in the process. But that just helped you refine some of the things and and get ready more immediately and strategically. But let's talk for a minute about what led you to go entrepreneurial right at the start of your career. A lot of people they do it for other reasons, they get fed up for work or with working for other people or they're ready for a change, or they've got some sort of a life change that's happened and they want to change something about their career as a result, and they wind up going entrepreneurial. You jumped right in with that. So talk a little bit about well, how you got to that point and and what then drove you into that as your beginning space for your for your career?

Allison Stein 8:35
Yeah, that's a good question. I think in the prior experiences I'd had working with clients, I had found it really rewarding to be able to work one on one with someone who is maybe a little bit new to the process and kind of learn alongside them. I found that a really rewarding dynamic. So that was one thing that I valued. I also enjoyed the variety of different work I got to do and the way I got to help solve different problems for people using different aspects of my skill set, whether that's writing, editing, or document design and different offshoots of those things. In the client projects that I done, I got exposed to a lot of different things because I was solving different problems with each new client and I enjoyed that I got to learn the different aspects of that. I was also intrigued in addition to client work with some of the behind the scenes elements of running a business as far as one thing we really focused on in the independent study was how to market myself in terms of professional identity and putting out my website, portfolio and blog. So I enjoyed those facets of running my business as well. And I wanted the opportunity to play with some of those things in my career.

Bill Williamson 9:54
And I'll say that we you were in a few different classes with me over your career where we We were kind of exploring what it would be like to have a carefully cultivated or, you know, like a media presence and talked about, I always joke in class about creating your own little media empire, and having the combination of things like a blog and a profiles on professional forums, such as LinkedIn, and maybe some of the consulting places like top towel or, or Fiverr, and things like that. And we talked about doing things like blogs, we talked about doing things like ebooks, I mean, so all these different bits and pieces where you get to build a profile, build a persona, have a presence, and to begin to make connections with people that are meaningful from a professional standpoint. What's awesome for me about all of this is that, you know, we talk about that kind of stuff. And I've been, I've been promoting these kinds of strategies for years with students in the classroom, have watched a number of professionals move on from SVSU and Northern Iowa before that, and to begin practicing some of those strategies. But you specifically, you put so many of those things into into test scenario right away, where the test scenario is your actual career, you're invested in it, you're very strategic about it, you're careful about planning, building, and then refining and tweaking, as you begin to get feedback from not me necessarily, but from clients and from others that are that are taking a look at things. It's just so cool, from my perspective to watch somebody take this stuff that we've been talking about for a long time and make it their own, and build on the stuff that we did in classrooms. And then to demonstrate, hey, this is possible to do something new, it's possible to launch a successful consulting career with these kinds of strategies.

Allison Stein 11:51
Yeah, I really like that point as far as building up immediate presence. And one thing that I really took from you in our independent study, and as well as other faculty members that I had, the opportunity to take classes with was this idea of creating a voice, yeah, through the website and media presence. And that was something that, I think was a big point of growth in the six months prior to my graduation, as far as figuring out how to come off as a professional rather than a student. And it was just, I had to work on sounding more confident in the way that I threaded some statements. And so that Yeah, so the clients were, were willing to work with me, and they had a good understanding of my value proposition and how I could serve their needs. So working on refining that voice was really valuable to making myself feel more comfortable talking to clients about what I do, and the different tools and strategies I can give them to help them meet their goals.

Bill Williamson 12:53
You've, you've had a good run of it. So far, you've got a handful of clients, you've got more than a handful of clients, you've done some really, really successful things. So far, you've got a number of things that are in the works. Let's talk for a little bit about the early days, the the launch of things. So specifically, reflect for a bit if you would on some of the challenges that were the most intimidating to you, and the strategies that you use to try to come to grips with that. And tied to that, like, what are some of the early moments that made you feel like, Hey, you made the right choice. And yeah, you can do this kind of thing.

Allison Stein 13:32
I think in the, in the very early days, confidence was definitely something that was a little tough for me as far as talking to clients, giving them quotes on projects and things like that, because I didn't really have necessarily a frame of reference from previous experiences on how to navigate all of that.

Bill Williamson 13:54
But putting $1 sign on your time is a really difficult thing to do. You talked a lot about that.

Allison Stein 14:02
A lot of the client work I had previously done well, when I hadn't, I didn't have a degree at that point. So I was pricing accordingly. And to I did some client work for academic credit. So I may not have been charging them anything or I was just charging them a little bit, whatever the arrangement was. So I think yeah, I had to work on figuring out how to value my services, and things like that. And I feel I feel better about it even now just because I have a frame of reference of what I've charged other clients. So I have a better idea of what's fair and a better idea of the return on investment clients can get from my work as well. I've noticed some like projects that have been successful in what clients have gained financially or otherwise in their business and then I don't feel bad charging because I feel like they're going to get that money back and what their work does for them.

Bill Williamson 14:55
Right. And in that case, then the greater value you give them of course the greater value they're going See, and that return on investment, but it also when you recognize that, and you see your contribution to someone else's success. And you realize, yeah, I did that. I may have been collaborating with them to some degree. But at some point, you know, a lot of that comes back to me doing my job. Well, it's easier than I think moving forward to think that your time is valuable, that it has a certain monetary value that is that is driven or in part dictated by the market and in part by the quality of the of the service and the goods that you are providing. But it becomes easier and more comfortable to place that value and to bet to defend that value against the people who might look at it as, hey, why am I paying you this? Why would why am I not doing this myself? They've always said, Go ahead, see how it goes. So what were some of the things that gave you confidence then right away? Or what were some of the earliest things that that helped you build that sense of professionalism for yourself,

Allison Stein 16:05
I think, interactions with clients where I felt like our conversation, or the piece of writing I gave them really kind of gave them an aha moment of some sort where they felt like they had a better understanding of their project, that was really rewarding for me as far as feeling that my skill set was contributing to their goals, and helping them kind of wrap their mind about around a project. So I guess those instances of kind of collaboration or CO creating a project together where it felt like my contributions, were helping them see the work they did in a different light, while still being consistent with their overall mission. That was really valuable to me kind of on this professional development journey, because I could kind of see, I offer services, obviously, but also think it helped me think through some of the intangible things that I could offer to clients through different interactions that we had, like helping them build their confidence in a project, for example, or helping them expand their mindset about the different possibilities of around a creative project.

Bill Williamson 17:10
And especially like you made reference to before, when you've got clients who are doing something like this, for the first time, they've never hired someone like you. They've never embarked on a project. That's exactly like what they're what they've asked you to help them do. There's an incredible leap for them as well. And we don't always recognize that as the designers that our clients might have some hesitation, trepidation, uncertainty, however, you want to frame it about the work that they're asking us to do. And sometimes they're afraid of letting us down or they're afraid of doing something that's going to make our work harder, or that they're not going to give us quality stuff to work with to begin with. And they don't always know, hey, you know what, we'll work with you no matter what, talk a little bit if you would about some of the things that you begin to learn early on about doing the work, whether that means like structuring your day, or you've talked about working with clients, you've talked about the importance of reflection, you've talked about the importance of developing your own voice. But in terms of the daily project of being a consultant, what are some of the lessons that you've learned with that?

Allison Stein 18:23
Yeah, I'm gonna start with the point. Some of the feelings the clients have about working and kind of said, almost setting their minds at ease in a sense of how things are going. I think, throughout my workday, I learned a lot about that. I think one of the reasons that I was struggling with confidence a little bit in the beginning was that I felt like my clients expected me to automatically know all these things. And then I found out that, like, just me being a good listener to them and figuring out what their goals are, and looking like helping them formulate a strategy to achieve that together was, was really a good strategy for a lot of people and that I could learn as I went and kind of helped them co create that strategy. Also, as far as my workday, figuring out, like, the workday itself as a structure was another thing that I've been working on since I worked from home and kind of developing different routines. I think for me part of it's tied a lot into reflection, like we talked about earlier, as far as like, one one ritual I have now is at the end of my workday, I kind of go through the list of my overall goals and tasks and, and kind of work on setting priorities. And I also record what I accomplished that day in terms of work I'm doing for my clients or work I'm doing in a broader sense with my business, whether that's something administrative in the background, whether that's learning a new skill or promoting my services on on my A blog or on social media, I kind of keep a record of that now. So I have, I kind of it gives me a better sense of perspective of where my time is going. And it gives me kind of a sense of accomplishment to about if something's taking maybe longer than I expected, I understand the different steps that went into that. And so it also helps me estimate better in the future, because sometimes I do a lot of things for the first time right now. So I don't necessarily account for all the steps in my head, I often account for at least 80% of them, but a lot of it is learning as I go. So realizing kind of almost setting a template for how a specific project works, whether that's creating a website, creating a book, that's been helpful when I have another client who wants the same product done,

Bill Williamson 20:50
I know that when I started doing consulting myself, and I was doing it part time to help, you know, put myself through school, rather than, you know, it's like jumping in both feet like you have. But I would always have a tendency when I started off to want to say that it would take me less time to do something than it might actually take. i There were two things going on, I didn't want to, I didn't want to put a huge price tag on something for my clients, I kept telling myself that I could do it faster, and I could still do it well. And part of it was that at times they overestimated my own abilities in my in my speed, what I underestimated was my own internal call for perfection that at times was a little bit too much of a drive. Like I There were times when I had had trouble saying it's good enough to show the client today, it doesn't have to be perfect yet. Doesn't have to be done yet. And it was hard for me not to put perfection in my eyes on the table with the client for every session. And so those were hard lessons for me, to be honest with myself and honest with my clients about how much time it would take and how much energy it would take and what the proper compensation for that would be. But again, you know, it was it was all about me not wanting to scare clients away not wanting to overcharge. But I learned to be honest and say okay, I think it's going to take this amount of time. And then if it took me less, just charge them less, give them the credit for that. And that made me feel good to be able to say, I told you, it would cost X number of dollars, that I came in under budget. And I like to be able to do that. And I like to be able to bring you some savings when I can. Like I would take pride in that. And that was actually a way for me to overcome that. Have you gone through any kind of journey or any kind of gymnastics mentally, emotionally. However, with that kind of stuff

Allison Stein 22:47
Like that I haven't gone through some gymnastics. I think it's been a little bit tough for me to decide when a project is defined as done in a sense, because a lot of like a website or a book, it could always always be better. So just trying to figure out what is the best marketable value that I can give the client given their the time resources we have available, essentially. So fit Yeah, defining when something is done based on the goals that they want to achieve, and the time and budget they have available to them essentially. So that's been challenging, because I want to do a really good job for my clients, especially at this stage in my career when I'm building, building this. But I mean, just in general, I want to do a good job for my clients and trying to define something as finished or at a point where I can show it to them and we can move forward has been something I've kind of gone back and forth on struggling a little bit there.

Bill Williamson 23:51
Let me switch gears just a little bit and ask you about the personal satisfaction of this because you you're talking about what you're learning. And that's, that's a fantastic thing in and of itself. But talk a little bit of if you would about the the professional satisfaction that you're taking for this. And I don't mean identify your favorite client, your favorite project, because it's not the kind of stuff you want to be doing. I mean, you know, thinking in terms of what are you taking pride in right now, when you look back on how things have gone for these first few months.

Allison Stein 24:27
I think I feel proud of the depth of relationships I've built with my clients. And there have been a couple instances where they have the same client as either hired me to do multiple projects, or they have talked to me about their plans to do so after the current project is complete. So I feel I feel happy that they are signaling that they are satisfied with my services and I feel happy that we've kind of built a more long term relationship in that sense. I also I feel proud when they act Express, that's something I've created is a good representation of what they were going for. And that's a really broad way to put it. But whether that if they're trying to express themselves and get an idea out, and they're kind of struggling with that, because they may not be a writer, or they may not be a designer, and then I'm able to kind of translate their vision into the tangible product that they were hoping for, that's a very satisfying feeling. For me,

Bill Williamson 25:25
That is a really cool thing to hear. And I love it that you defined it, not in terms of yourself, yeah. But in terms of your relationships that you're cultivating with others. That's very much in the spirit of technical communication, as I have experienced it. But it's always like, I find that gratifying to hear someone like you who's who's shared some of this journey professionally, in terms of your professional development. With me, I love hearing that kind of value come back from people that that it's that the way that we engage the way that others connect with us in the way that they value our work is core to our own sense of self and our own sense of contribution. That's a fantastic thing to hear. So, I'm going to ask you to talk directly to students who are future professionals first, and then I'll circle back around and I'll ask you the same kind of question directed at faculty, the ones those of us who are preparing future professionals, it's gonna be basically the same question. But first, like talking to students, to future professionals, or maybe to people who are relatively new to their careers as you are, what kind of things would you say to them? kind of advice would you give to them? What kind of things would you maybe to put it in another way, the things you wish you had learned, or things that you have been reinforced by your experiences that you always kind of knew are valuable, but just what would you say to those people who are, who are getting ready to launch a career or thinking about a change into something more entrepreneurial, to give them that kick, they might need to take that step. One thing

Allison Stein 27:07
That I really appreciated having was the opportunity to really think through a lot of the strategies in the sense of professional identity before completely diving into work with clients. I think that gave me a sense of a more a better sense of confidence and competence than I would have had, if I had not had that in place, I was really thinking about how to market myself and what skills I had to offer. And that was really important for me to communicate in every single interaction with a new client.

Bill Williamson 27:39
One cool thing that we've done at SVSU actually has now we have a course, that will essentially follow up on what you did as a special topic. And it'll be it's not only built in, but it's actually required in the curriculum now that we're going to make people think about stuff like that. So and I think that's a really valuable thing. But it's so again, wonderful to hear you saying how important that has been to your initial initial drive here. So and then I jumped in there. So go ahead and continue.

Allison Stein 28:09
Oh, sure. I think this idea of co creation with clients was also really valuable to my early professional development experiences, because when you're a young professional, or you're just new to the field, it can feel a little bit overwhelming, like maybe I don't know enough to be a value. But when you think of it in more of a collaborative sense, you can think about how to pair like pair your skill set as a Technical Communication professional, with the clients you're working with, and their expertise in their line of work, and their vision for what they want. So thinking about that, as a partnership, really, it takes a lot of the pressure off. And it also leads to a lot of rewarding interactions with clients.

Bill Williamson 28:51
Yeah, certainly that, especially when you get a client who is working with you, who values and appreciates what you're doing, and doesn't expect you to carry the entire load or feels. More importantly, it may be less about load, but more about, I want to be part of this, and I want to be part of it being the best that it can be. I've had some wonderful relationships with clients through the years that have come from that kind of collaboration again, so it's cool to hear you echo that, but I think we put students in too few situations where they get to have a meaningful client experience like that. I think it's hard for clients to know how to do that kind of stuff as well. You know, we made reference to that earlier.

Allison Stein 29:33
Yeah, a lot of the clients that I'm working with or that I have worked with over the past six months, were really engaged in the process. So that made it really exciting for me. They had a vested interest in the final outcome and they really, really engaged in a project, whether that was collaborating on the actual work of the project or providing a lot of ideas and insights about how the project might look like it was definitely really valuable for me to have that type of engagement from the clients.

Bill Williamson 30:05
Absolutely, I can see how especially early in your career that would help you. But I know from my perspective, I mean, I've been doing this for a very long time now. And I don't know how much I valued it, or how much I knew I should value it when I was first starting off, but I value it enormously. Now, if I've got a client who who disconnects, who's afraid to engage, because they don't want to, you know, a lot of times they're afraid of screwing up the project or something like that. It's a, it's more of a struggle for me sometimes to get them to understand what's happening, if I can't get them to come to the table. That just that makes sense, of course. But it's hard to get them to understand how, even when they don't write any words, or design any documents or record any voices in any way, shape or form directly. They're engaged engagement is still absolutely core to the success or failure of a project and the more that they buy in the the easier my job becomes.

Allison Stein 31:04
And it's interesting to think about the different roles clients might take, whether that's an act of collaboration and a tangible product, or whether that's a little bit more behind the scenes in informing the the core image of the project. But it's an it's interesting, like, depending on the role, they kind of take on as the client, it impacts my role as a consultant to and the different types of relationships I can have with that client in terms of I'm a writer, but I can also serve a few different functions as far as helping clients develop the project. So it's interesting to think about that. And it's kind of a concept and still fleshing out in my mind and creating a mental map of that, like we talked about.

Bill Williamson 31:50
So the reason that I asked you to talk to students or young professionals first is that I figured whatever came out, it would be good. But also whatever came out, then the logical turn then is to talk to colleagues, my colleagues, the faculty colleagues, and to say to them, consider how to help someone like you become someone like you. What would you offer as advice to faculty who are leading classes in technical communication, whatever configuration that might be in around the country? What would you say to them about creating experiences that would help you learn the things that have been necessary for you to take the leap that you've taken,

Allison Stein 32:35
Professional identity was kind of a thread throughout my academic career, and that that was very valuable as far as figuring out how to define what I do, I kind of I actually came from technical writing from the creative writing side. So that was my first kind of experience of wrestling with professional identity. And then, now that I'm a consultant and doing a variety of different projects, thinking about how to market myself so that I am broad enough to appeal to all the clients that I need to appeal to, but also narrow enough so that I have a defined scope of my work and so that I can gain skills in that specific area without it becoming too overwhelming, I suppose, or too, so broad that I couldn't manage it as efficiently as I could with a more narrow scope. So the idea of, like you just mentioned, having a specific course now dedicated to establishing professional identity, I think that would be an asset as far as helping students define that and narrow it down. Also, one thing I appreciated about my college experience was having the opportunity to work with different clients in various capacities, even if it wasn't the main aspect of the class, if there was a little element of it or something like that everything was was valuable in helping me get that type of exposure. That made it a little bit easier to take the jump in the last six months.

Bill Williamson 34:08
Is there anything that looking back, you wish a class you had taken, or experience you had reached for that you didn't?

Allison Stein 34:17
I felt, I would say most uncomfortable with some of the behind the scenes stuff with clients. I felt comfortable doing the actual projects, and even interacting with clients. I'd had enough experience but I felt I felt very uncomfortable at first giving them a quote for my services. I felt uncomfortable with handling some of those things because I hadn't done it before. Just even if I had completed a lot of different client experiences. I hadn't necessarily completed the entire client cycle as far as onboarding the client getting hired by the client and kind of working with them and then finishing their relationship, I suppose. So I think the entire client lifecycle, you could say, I, again, bits and pieces of it. But so the entire thing, there was some gaps there. For me,

Bill Williamson 35:11
that's a difficult thing for academics to find a way of providing, and at the same time being so one of the one of the things with SVSU is that we have our entrepreneurial research and design group that's called Cardinal solutions. And then we also have connected to our as a multi multi departmental project, for those of you who aren't aware of the specifics of that. And then within our own department, Dr. Kowalewski, at i co direct the the usability research team, and you participated in both of those. But even with that, I mean, I know, you get put in connection with clients, where you get to see how they respond throughout the project. But it's a, it is a very different thing, to be a bystander or to be one of many, and to be the person who's actually leading them through that, that whole journey or taking that walk with them together, so to speak. So that's a really interesting, interesting thing for us to consider in university life. How do we provide that kind of an experience in a meaningful way to every student? Is it possible to do it for every student? Is it is it at least possible to do for the students who reach for it, you know, the people who recognize and who wind up connected with things that are a little grander or a little more client driven, you know, outside of the classroom, specifically. But it's so many of the things that we talk about in education, really make me think that the every student needs something like that. And even if it's challenging, even if we don't see it as an easy thing to do? Gosh, it's hard for me to say that we should not reach for that as faculty, as programs, as universities to try to provide those kinds of experiences for our students.

Allison Stein 37:02
Yeah, it was where it really helped me to be part of the usability research team and Cardinal solutions as far as having some type of conceptual framework about how to manage a client project, and how to address some of those things for sure. And it's interesting to think about incorporating the entire, the entire cycle of working with a client and kind of being the lead person in a sense that's responsible for managing a project, and how that could potentially be incorporated into academic settings. Because I do think there are some logistic challenges to to making that happen. But it's also Yeah, might be helpful to have some of that incorporated.

Bill Williamson 37:47
Absolutely. Well, Allison, this has been a wonderful conversation so far. And it feels like we've talked about a lot and that maybe we've got some more conversation to have here. But I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to invite you back for a second episode here. And like I said, thank you very much for for stopping by and sharing with us what you've shared so far today.

Allison Stein 38:09
You're welcome. I enjoyed the opportunity to have this conversation and thanks for having me.

Bill Williamson 38:21
I told you that if you stuck around you'd hear some wonderful things. SVSU professional and technical writing programs have really graduated some absolutely incredible professionals and I hope to showcase as many of them as I can in the coming months here through all things are Pw and I hope you come back to listen to more. Until next time, everybody. Take care and thank you for listening

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